It's not really that risky if you're good at it, and there's an equally strong back up hold if your back is "exposed". I'm about to get my second degree black belt in BJJ, and the scarf hold has been my goto for decades. It's also got more submission possibilities than the BJJ variation with the underhook, although the underhook variation is more suitable for transitions.
Where are you transitioning to if you lose the elbow?
I think it’s telling that the position is practically never used in high level BJJ competition. If it was effective, the professionals would be using it. But the risk/reward ratio is too off for most to employ it vs high level competition.
Strategies and techniques are constantly changing and developing. Holds and submissions go in and out of vogue as counter strategies are discovered. The fact that today's BJJ pros don't use a particular technique is not an indication that it is necessarily bad. High level players have been using kesa gatame for over 100 years and it has won plenty of Olympic matches, and I assure you that a back take is just as dangerous in judo as it is in BJJ. If you look at it historically, BJJ is really just another form of judo with an older slightly modified rule set.
Sure - but kesa is a well known position to everyone and it has never been popular in the BJJ ruleset.
Kesa is used a lot in Judo - and at the highest levels, but it’s an entirely different ruleset. Holding someone for 20 seconds with kesa is quite doable and having your back taken in Judo isn’t as risky because a ref will often save you if you stall long enough.
I do like the transition to ushiro kesa and I do use it myself, but it too is highly risky against high level BJJ grapplers. Even if it works 8 times out of 10, that still means you got your back taken twice which is lights out vs some of these guys.
One other transition ill try when shit goes wrong is to cartwheel to the other side but it also comes with the risk of being regaurded.
The judo ruleset you are talking about is VERY RECENT. Before the 1990s you had to maintain a hold for 30 seconds, and before the 1970s there was no chance of being "saved by a ref due to stalling".
True, but how many pros would have considered lapel guard to be a losing idea until Keenan Cornelius came along? Scarf hold in particular seems to have a lasting stigma to it, and while of course it has flaws (all moves do), I'm not sure that its stigma is deserved.
I get that, and that used to happen. But it’s gotten a lot more rare that that occurs for me. I usually can keep someone my size immobilized in scarf for some time until a submission opportunity opens. What are your go-to moves?
Yes, of course, but if the proverbial Jack only goes for side control and mount, that makes him a very dull boy...
I'm looking for "reliable but unusual." 2 years ago I started doing the weave pass at my gym. It just wasn't commonly known because it wasn't part of our curriculum (neither is scarf). I was getting it all the time. Now everyone does it and I rarely get it anymore. Yet I keep trying. I need a new shiny object.
I'm a BJJ blue belt, and I often find myself going for scarf hold when on top. So often that I think it's my first go-to. I love it for a few reasons: 1.) because it works in both gi and nogi 2.) it's a strong immobilizer when weight is balanced well (still working on that) and 3.) there's a hip switch arm bar there that I've gotten quite a few times on guys: they seem to expect the arm bar over your bottom thigh (which is low percentage for me) but after switching hips and getting the higher angle and more room to apply pressure I often get a tap.
I'm curious if anyone else uses scarf hold regularly, and what your go-to moves are with it. Especially wanting to identify other holds like it where you can settle in and catch a breather while also have multiple submission paths.
You can indeed gi for Ashi gatame or juji garami. Getting the near arm of Uke between your legs and twist it until he taps. It’s also a good tool to keep him quiet and on his back until time has ran out or to dominate him for a while longer.
I think you're mixing up juji garami with juji gatami. Juji garami is an aikido take down which is always done standing. Juji gatami is the arm bar from the side between the legs.
subwrestler81 (2)
06/4/2023 15:14Scarf is super risky from a BJJ perspective as it gives up the far side underhook which means that any mistake exposes your back.
It’s much more effective in a Judo context where you simply have to pin someone for 20 seconds.
TxWrestle (48 )
06/4/2023 16:13(em resposta à...)
It's not really that risky if you're good at it, and there's an equally strong back up hold if your back is "exposed". I'm about to get my second degree black belt in BJJ, and the scarf hold has been my goto for decades. It's also got more submission possibilities than the BJJ variation with the underhook, although the underhook variation is more suitable for transitions.
subwrestler81 (2)
07/4/2023 05:56(em resposta à...)
Where are you transitioning to if you lose the elbow?
I think it’s telling that the position is practically never used in high level BJJ competition. If it was effective, the professionals would be using it. But the risk/reward ratio is too off for most to employ it vs high level competition.
TxWrestle (48 )
07/4/2023 19:15(em resposta à...)
Strategies and techniques are constantly changing and developing. Holds and submissions go in and out of vogue as counter strategies are discovered. The fact that today's BJJ pros don't use a particular technique is not an indication that it is necessarily bad. High level players have been using kesa gatame for over 100 years and it has won plenty of Olympic matches, and I assure you that a back take is just as dangerous in judo as it is in BJJ. If you look at it historically, BJJ is really just another form of judo with an older slightly modified rule set.
subwrestler81 (2)
10/4/2023 15:42(em resposta à...)
Sure - but kesa is a well known position to everyone and it has never been popular in the BJJ ruleset.
Kesa is used a lot in Judo - and at the highest levels, but it’s an entirely different ruleset. Holding someone for 20 seconds with kesa is quite doable and having your back taken in Judo isn’t as risky because a ref will often save you if you stall long enough.
I do like the transition to ushiro kesa and I do use it myself, but it too is highly risky against high level BJJ grapplers. Even if it works 8 times out of 10, that still means you got your back taken twice which is lights out vs some of these guys.
One other transition ill try when shit goes wrong is to cartwheel to the other side but it also comes with the risk of being regaurded.
TxWrestle (48 )
10/4/2023 16:01(em resposta à...)
The judo ruleset you are talking about is VERY RECENT. Before the 1990s you had to maintain a hold for 30 seconds, and before the 1970s there was no chance of being "saved by a ref due to stalling".
TxWrestle (48 )
07/4/2023 19:08(em resposta à...)
The answer to your question begins around 5 minutes into the video.
PierreDef (2)
07/4/2023 13:44(em resposta à...)
True, but how many pros would have considered lapel guard to be a losing idea until Keenan Cornelius came along? Scarf hold in particular seems to have a lasting stigma to it, and while of course it has flaws (all moves do), I'm not sure that its stigma is deserved.
subwrestler81 (2)
10/4/2023 15:43(em resposta à...)
Worm guard was entirely new. Kesa was well known to everyone. Really different occurrences IMO
PierreDef (2)
06/4/2023 15:38(em resposta à...)
I get that, and that used to happen. But it’s gotten a lot more rare that that occurs for me. I usually can keep someone my size immobilized in scarf for some time until a submission opportunity opens. What are your go-to moves?
subwrestler81 (2)
07/4/2023 05:58(em resposta à...)
Much prefer side control/mount. I feel they are more stable positions with far less risk if something goes wrong.
PierreDef (2)
07/4/2023 13:52(em resposta à...)
Yes, of course, but if the proverbial Jack only goes for side control and mount, that makes him a very dull boy...
I'm looking for "reliable but unusual." 2 years ago I started doing the weave pass at my gym. It just wasn't commonly known because it wasn't part of our curriculum (neither is scarf). I was getting it all the time. Now everyone does it and I rarely get it anymore. Yet I keep trying. I need a new shiny object.
PierreDef (2)
05/4/2023 12:51I'm a BJJ blue belt, and I often find myself going for scarf hold when on top. So often that I think it's my first go-to. I love it for a few reasons: 1.) because it works in both gi and nogi 2.) it's a strong immobilizer when weight is balanced well (still working on that) and 3.) there's a hip switch arm bar there that I've gotten quite a few times on guys: they seem to expect the arm bar over your bottom thigh (which is low percentage for me) but after switching hips and getting the higher angle and more room to apply pressure I often get a tap.
I'm curious if anyone else uses scarf hold regularly, and what your go-to moves are with it. Especially wanting to identify other holds like it where you can settle in and catch a breather while also have multiple submission paths.
FunWrestler (14)
07/4/2023 12:11(em resposta à...)
You can indeed gi for Ashi gatame or juji garami. Getting the near arm of Uke between your legs and twist it until he taps. It’s also a good tool to keep him quiet and on his back until time has ran out or to dominate him for a while longer.
TxWrestle (48 )
07/4/2023 19:02(em resposta à...)
I think you're mixing up juji garami with juji gatami. Juji garami is an aikido take down which is always done standing. Juji gatami is the arm bar from the side between the legs.